Thank You OGR | O Gauge Forum (2024)

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Thank You OGRJun 15, 2022 15:39:31 GMT

Post by ptc on Jun 15, 2022 15:39:31 GMT

Maybe we should say thank you to the OGR as It appears that some folks just love controversyas evidenced by the very high number of guests we have experienced recently. Giving us free publicity, though it was not designed to be positive, has a natural side-benefit of causing their members to look at us and that is good. Another side benefit is some of these guests will join with us when they see the total picture.

Steve Nelson (aka as Mr. Muffin) started a thread on the OGR platform this morning defending his friend Harry Hieke. Perfectly understandable that he is doing what he can to protect a business/financial associatewho has established a close profit related working relationship with. Most folks like and respect Steve as he has been a fixture in our hobby for many years. He is a nice guy and runs a train shop that has an excellent reputation. Many of our OGF members use his services. We have absolutely no axto grind with Steve as he serves our hobby in a professional way.

He starts his thread by saying:

“First, exactly how am I “conflicted?” Because I pay Harry money for services rendered?”

Let’s bring Steve up to speed with what the dictionary describes as a conflict of interest:

a situation in which a person is in a position to derive personal benefit from actions or decisions made in their official capacity”.
Steve has a business/financial relationship with Harry Hieke. They both derive a profit (or at least I am sure they try to) from each other’s business/financial relationship. To say that there is no potential conflict of interest is a stretch.

Steve is an active member of the OGF and has not been banned. We did e-mail him to inform him that posts relative to Harry Hieke would be inappropriate as to a potential conflict of interest. I think that most members and guests can understand our position.

Steve went on to post his version of the Harry Hieke recent incidents. What was posted is all here-say as Steve had no direct information other than Harry’s version of the story. Is it all designed to protect Harry, for sure, but he has every right to try to protect his for profit business associate. Freedom of speech and that is always a good thing.

Next, and this is hilarious, the Publisher of OGR attempted to join the OGF in the wee hours of this morning. He used a generic e-mail address and applied to us under the username as “trex” Our new member application then sends out a brief questionnaire to learn more about the applicants interests in our hobby. Mr. Arnold quickly replied to our request, but he forgot that he was using an e-mail address that had his REAL name. Must be very embarrassing for him now.Quickly realizing his big mistake, he then sent us the following reply:

From: Alan Arnold <>

Date: June 15, 2022 at 12:27:17 AM EDT

To: O-Gauge Forum <>

Subject: Re: OGF

Now that you know who I am, I am certain that you (Brian) will not approve my application and I will be sure to let other forums know this.

The Publisher of OGR wanted to join us, this is somewhat humorous in the face of what he has said about nus before.

Finally, George (Laz57) made a post to this OGR thread in part saying:
“Yes I was part of the OGF until recently being banned there.”

You are so much better than this, George. You know very well that you left voluntarily and were NOT BANNED. Why would you post this?
That should cover it. It will be nice to see this all go away. It does not serve our hobby well. Those who op;pose us just keep putting us in a position that we have to continue to defend our rightful actions. Otherwise, thosewho read the bunk will be left withno other alternative than to believe the crap. We have said what had to be said and then locked the related thread to make them go away as quicklyas possible. Hopefullyothers will follow our lead.

Last Edit: Jun 15, 2022 15:53:48 GMT by ptc

Joe Saggese
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Thank You OGRJun 15, 2022 15:52:29 GMT

Post by Joe Saggese on Jun 15, 2022 15:52:29 GMT

I can understand both sides. OGF members wanted their engines and being written off because of bigger and better things wasn’t a good thing to do. It’s human nature to feel slighted over this. I also understand Mr Muffin defending Harry. Nothing wrong there.

As far as Laz goes, publish the letter where he quit. That will put it to rest.

Other than that it’s all much ado about nothing.

Last Edit: Jun 15, 2022 15:55:56 GMT by Joe Saggese

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Thank You OGRJun 15, 2022 16:13:53 GMTCountry Joe, Joe Saggese, and 1 more like this

Post by josef on Jun 15, 2022 16:13:53 GMT

WOW! First I really respected Laz at one time, and I know why he got upset and left. But I have lost all respect he earned with me making such a statement, that he was "Banned". I rather he stated he left and even why he left, but stating he was banned with no support for that statement, is deceiving and not thru full.
2nd. I believe there is from what I'm hearing and reading this morning there is a movement to destroy us.

Sorry if I overstepped in posting this, but I am really angry in people, going to say it, lying.

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Thank You OGRJun 15, 2022 16:24:14 GMT

Post by larock on Jun 15, 2022 16:24:14 GMT

I have a great deal of experience in dealing with non-profits... a very great deal. All non-profits must to derive revenue from somewhere. All people must be able to eat. To imply that those who are engaged in for-profit activities are somehow less noble or more conflicted and self-serving than those engaged in non-profit activities is absurd on it's face.

Last Edit: Jun 15, 2022 16:27:40 GMT by ptc

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Thank You OGRJun 15, 2022 16:24:55 GMTJoe Saggese likes this

Post by ptc on Jun 15, 2022 16:24:55 GMT

"As far as Laz goes, publish the letter where he quit. That will put it to rest."

Thank you so much for this post, Joe. It caused me to contact our System Engineer to recover the deletedrecord that LAZ speaks about. I just took his word that he quit the OGF. What a shock when the System Engineer told me that there was no record of a resignationor for that matter a ban, and George as of this moment is an ACTIVE MEMBER of the OGF. If there is any question about this, here is his ACTIVE RECORD"

Latest Status:



Date Registered:Sep 10, 2019 at 1:15pm



Are you a member of another model train forum?:Yes

If yes, what is the name of the forum(s):OGR

If yes, what is your forum handle(s)?:laz1957

I have read and agree to the OGF Mission Statement:Yes

View this member's recent posts.

I guess this puts the matter at rest, George was not banned.

Last Edit: Jun 15, 2022 16:25:52 GMT by ptc

Joe Saggese
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Country Joe
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Thank You OGRJun 15, 2022 17:41:01 GMTJoe Saggese likes this

Post by Country Joe on Jun 15, 2022 17:41:01 GMT

I just checked the Members list and Laz57 is still a member here. You can check this out for yourself. At the top of the screen under the OGF/NABCC banner are a number of clickable buttons, Home, About Us, etc. Click the Members tab and then either search for laz57 or just scroll through the list until you find him. He is still a member here and could return anytime he wants. He shouldn’t be saying he was banned when it is clearly not the case.

The Florida East Coast Railway in N scale

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Eat, Sleep, Run Trains, Repeat !

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Thank You OGRJun 15, 2022 18:26:18 GMTJoe Saggese, dennym57, and 3 more like this

Post by Traindiesel! on Jun 15, 2022 18:26:18 GMT

This is all just terrible. Not good for the hobby or either OGF and OGR. To witness people I like and respect attacking each other is disheartening. We are all better than this.

O Gauge trains, it's not an addiction, it's a dedication !!

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Penn American Railroad
"Serving the Living Room"

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Thank You OGRJun 15, 2022 18:37:16 GMTCountry Joe and Adam like this

Post by redjimmy1955 on Jun 15, 2022 18:37:16 GMT

Concerning the drama from Alan Arnold......HA HA HA HA HA! Hang in there, OGF! People are haphazardly throwing muck and seeing if anything sticks!
Another reason I'm parking on THIS Forum!

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Locos and longrifles - it's gotta belch smoke!

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Thank You OGRJun 15, 2022 21:35:22 GMT

Post by osprey on Jun 15, 2022 21:35:22 GMT

Obviously I didn't know what I was wading into with all this, I just wanted to know where all the guys who I liked to talk to and see their posts went. Until about 15 minutes ago I didn't have a clue there was even a club involved, much less which club or where. But after two days of listening to and talking with many poeple I have come to my own conclusions about the heart of the problem and it's basically the emporer has no clothes. IF I had any last doubts two things took care of that.

First, I have never met Mark Boyce, although I have always followed his posts as a fellow member of the Holy Brethren of the Western Maryland Fireball. But even I know he's universally known as the nicest guy on the internet. To call him out in such a snide and disrespectful manner for asking a reasonable and civil question when nobody wanted to fess up to anything that was happening is petty, small minded and the mark of wanna be despot. And yes, that's you Brian.

Second, I say what I have to say in the open or face to face. That hatefull e-mail you chose to send hoping to preserve some semblance of a gentle forum leader, Brain, sealed any doubts in my mind. I'm not sure what all the shooter and shooting BS was about or if it was some sort of veiled threat on your part, but it certainly has nothing to do with trains. I may have longrifles in my tagline and if and when you follow your art and passion to the point that you can take a few hundred dollars of wood, steel and brass and apply a few hundred hours with rasps, files, chisels, gouges, hammers and hand gravers to the point you can sell every piece of functional art you make for ten times the input cost, then you can join me and other gunmakers at any of the forums or shows and follow your obvious obsession. But if your intent was the former and not the latter, I'll just say I hope to meet you at a train show some day so you can continue with that, or try to.

I'm sure Ill be "Volunteered" right off of here with some others for calling out his righteousness, if so I'll check in with all you other fine fellows I've had a chance to speak with somewhere down the road. Fireball Forever!!

Joe Saggese
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Thank You OGRJun 15, 2022 23:39:17 GMTCountry Joe, dennym57, and 2 more like this

Post by Joe Saggese on Jun 15, 2022 23:39:17 GMT

My opinion and only my opinion. I disabled my account at OGR a few years ago. I wasn’t singled out by anyone. It just wasn’t for me. So I moved to MTF. Soon after Gunrunner John started a fight because of the o scale guys celebrating each other’s birthday. He couldn’t stop people from saying happy birthday so he quit the MTF forum. Then some heavy handed moderator came in and removed people. Thus OGF was formed. So let’s not forget our vision of OGF being different from all forums and being welcoming and friendly.

As a founding member of the OGF I say let everyone put their past and present grievances on the table. We can all discuss it and move on.
Let whatever happened in the past be healed and forgotten.

I embrace everyone in the O Scale hobby as a friend and a peer.

This is all I have to say on the subject.

Joe Saggese
A guy who still plays with his 1973 Lionel Cannonball Express andFounding Member OGF

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Thank You OGRJun 16, 2022 2:40:47 GMTCountry Joe, Joe Saggese, and 3 more like this

Post by rockymountaineer on Jun 16, 2022 2:40:47 GMT

Well thus far I've pretty much stayed out of the public commentary about this whole topic. But today has led me to draw some serious and very sad conclusions.

But before I go there... for some of the newbies on this forum, please understand that my comments -- while objective -- are also colored by the fact that I parted company from the powers-at-be on OGR over 4+ years ago. And I have absolutely ZERO regrets. NONE. WHATSOEVER.

Knowing what I know of the management style over there, I'm quite sure they're happy I'm no longer posting on their forum. So the feeling is quite mutual indeed. In my final months leading up to my departure, I had forum content edited consistantly (as if I were writing an article for their magazine), and there were even periods where my posts were held in moderator's limbo until they reviewed my content and gave it their "approval". That was the last straw for me. So of course it "colors" my view of OGR. I'm not a hypocrite. I dared to push the envelope of posting with a colorful personality over there. And they resented it. Their little town was not big enough for all of us. And so be it.

I'm not gonna get into the minutia as to whether I was "officially banned" or whether "I left" OGR on my own doing. That's all water under the bridge. But I have no qualms whatsoever admitting, that after tolerating their heavy-handed moderation style for 17 years as it pertained to my product reviews and comments about best business practices by toy train importers... I guess when you tell the moderators to stick their keyboard up their posterior orifice, they're more than entitled to lock one's account and send you on your way. Whatever. I simply don't care at this point. But my account is still "defined" over there (as of this post), and it's likely part of an inflated roster of members for advertising purposes -- much like the shrewd Twitter executives have inflated the number of Twitter's accounts to include misleading numbers of "bot accounts" to insinuate a much broader reach than is really there -- which in turn bolsters the company's perceived worth... for an Elan Musk buy-out. But I digress. It is what it is.

So getting back to Brian's original post in this thread.... having read it, I peeked over on OGR to see what all the buzz was about. And I was astonished to see a rallying cry of OGR members offering their "Ra-Ra's" shooting sunshine up AA's butt and commenting on something they literally know diddly squat about before reading the original post. They had ZERO context, and they didn't care. People I had long forgotten about since my departure over there came out in droves to throw unfounded spears at OGF founders in a way that is nothing short of hateful, vindictive and ignorant. And these people claim to be "adults"?

A few select posters were former members here on OGF -- many of whom I never met in person. Some I did meet at train shows, and we were always cordial. However, I always had my doubts about what made a few of them tick. And now I know for sure from their self-centered comments on the MrMuffin thread on OGR that they are nothing but two-faced, fair-weather personalities for whom I have absolutely no use. They don't exist to me. One or two even had the pompous audacity to inform readers that THEY deleted their account of their own volition to clarify any non-existent rumors that they were kicked out. Newsflash: NOBODY. CARES.

And for the record, NONE of my comments in this post are directed at GunrunnerJohn, Ben from the NJ HiRailers, or MartyE -- all of whom posted on the MrMuffin OGR thread. So let's just be clear about that right now. I have no beef with any of these three individuals, and sometimes it's simply human nature that people see things differently. I get that. And that's where things SHOULD have ended in this entire debacle. So by and large, their comments in the thread -- either direct or quoted from another post -- aren't what bother me about this whole blow-up at all. As adults, we're not always gonna see things through the same set of glasses. AND. THAT'S. OK.

What bothered me most is the rallying of brown-nosing OGR members behind their forum's leadership, as if they and their forum's management are a bunch of choir boys. LOL!!!! And why do I say that? Because some of those members have candidly talked down about the OGR forum's management to me at York and Allentown train shows. Yet here they are publicly cheering the graces of OGR, while casting unwarranted dispersion on OGF, it's founders and its members.

No apologies here, folks... some things need to be said. And I've NEVER been shy about calling things as I see them. I stand by everything I post online. I stood by EVERYTHING I ever posted for 17 years on OGR, and I'll continue to stand by everything I've posted here on OGF since I've joined a few years ago.

Yes... I could have sent this as a private message to Brian. But I felt saying it publicly might help some folks who didn't -- and still don't -- have the full context of what went down within the OGF Engine Project. And now they might realize that the OGF management team is the best in the business, and the team offers their members a far better platform to speak freely about model train products and issues WITHOUT heavy-handed moderation. The trash-talking I read on the OGR thread directed toward OGF is exactly that... raw rubbish.

So many people on OGR now feel that because MrMuffin posted his "Harry Hieke Version" of the OGF Engine Project, that they now know the truth. Well... they might have a few more pieces of information. But it's still NOT the FULL story. A LOT went down with this project. Some of it quite good. But some of it was seedy indeed.

Could some things have been done differently? Let's just say hindsight is always 20/20. But OGF couldn't possibly have known that their originally selected importer or manufacturer was gonna increase the price of their locomotive quote AFTER ads were placed announcing the locomotive (and its price). And some deposits had already been collected by OGF. That set a lot of behind-the-scenes machinations in motion -- none of which need to be explained here. But you can easily understand how that set the stage early on for a ton of frustration later in the project, when part of the delivery team missed deadlines downstream, delivered faulty work, and then ultimately departed the scene. LOTS of things could have happened more smoothly. And there was absolutely no reason they didn't.

Lastly, let me also comment on the few posters here on OGF -- and you know who you are -- who have done nothing but stir up trouble and false innuendo in recent days about select members departing from OGF. You know damn well that your posts were meant to pit members against each other, and some of your comments have knowingly been flagrant lies. Other OGF members here see those posts for what they are, and you've only ruined you own credibility. So now... when we see your screen name next to a post, we pretty much know what the next few sentences will look that. Do you feel good about that?

Bottom line... this is all very sad. I offer much in the way of conservative political commentary and analysis on social media these days, and I EXPECT this level of divisive sparring in those venues. It's become the harsh nature of politics today. But I DON'T expect to see it here or on any online Model Railroading social media platform. The bad-mouthing needs to stop. And it needs to stop NOW. What started as an exciting explanation for some behind-the-scenes nuances and delivery details of what is shaping up to be a wildly successful OGF 2022 Club Car offering (i.e., the NYC Flatcar w/twin PUP trailers) has vindictively been twisted into a bunch of aimless accusations by people who literally don't know their head from their butt. OR they have their head shoved so far up their butt that they can't even catch a breath of fresh air.

That's a damn shame. And if you're offended by my comments here, then so be it. BECAUSE. I. JUST. DON'T. CARE. ONE. WAY. OR. THE. OTHER. HOW. YOU. FEEL.

To paraphrase Jack Nicholson… some of you OGR brown-nosers and OGF pot-stirrers can’t handle the truth, because you don’t wanna hear the truth.

Meanwhile, I just wanna enjoy O-Gauge Trains and share interesting topics of discussion among fellow toy train enthusiasts. And right now, I regularly go to two places online to do that: OGF and Harry Henning's O-Gauge Tricks and Tips Facebook Group.

So to all the new folks who are interested in joining OGF after hearing about this forum on OGR (assuming the thread hasn't been deleted or heavily edited by now), I say WELCOME ABOARD. I KNOW YOU'RE GONNA LIKE IT HERE! Don't let other people's baseless comments influence what you do and don't do. Be your own individual. And never, NEVER be intimidated, because the truth will ALWAYS set you free. You just need to find out the truth YOUR way, and make your own decisions that are right for you.

Last Edit: Jun 16, 2022 6:01:40 GMT by rockymountaineer

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Thank You OGRJun 16, 2022 4:16:54 GMTCountry Joe and dennym57 like this

Post by david1 on Jun 16, 2022 4:16:54 GMT

David, I have kept my comments to myself about this whole matter. Number one I was not involved in what happened but it sure did not stop others from their opinion though they knew nothing. As far as the comments on OGR from former members of ogf , what a bunch of no nothings. I'm ashamed of what some of them said.
For those who don't know me I was also banned from OGR After 20+ years and I have no time for them. Btw I read every post about the OGF on OGR and all I can say, what a bunch of ass kissers!!

Its time we put this to bed and go on with our lives and our hobby.

Btw,anybody who is offended by my post, I DON'T CARE


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Thank You OGRJun 17, 2022 13:31:49 GMTthebigcrabcake and RickyTanner like this

Post by dlagrua on Jun 17, 2022 13:31:49 GMT

I'll choose not to comment on the debate going on but will say that this forum has allowed all members to post honest thoughtful comments about the model train hobby based on actual experiences. You cannot do that elsewhere. That is why the OGF forum without advertisers and not controlled by a commercial publication offers much more. In the long run more model railroaders will come to appreciate this and that is why OGF picks up new members weekly.

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Thank You OGRJun 18, 2022 23:52:10 GMTvia mobileJoe Saggese likes this

Post by redjimmy1955 on Jun 18, 2022 23:52:10 GMT

Having read All of these comments and my musing over them, I find much if not all my feelings about OGR to be true.
Life is to short to be lead around by the nose. I like y'all and I'm staying.

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